AD110 and the Chime Kit Question

[testuser]

Hi All, I finished putting together my AD110 setup with a new 16V 30VA transformer, and confirmed that it worked with my doorbell prior to proceeding. I then wired up the chime kit to the doorbell to both available terminals (front and trans), and then wired up my AD110 in the same position as my previous doorbell button by the door.

After I turned the breaker back on this time, I heard a humming that grew louder, and louder from the inner doorbell setup. Ultimately, I smelled plastic burning. Normally, I think this would happen if wires were crossed. My suspicion is that something became messed up with the wiring of either my chime kit between the two terminals, or the AD110 on the outside. However, the instructions indicate that there is no distinction between the two wires, as it is AC.

Can anyone provide any thoughts or ideas as to what happened? It melted the cylinder where the plunger slides in and out of the doorbell. While I've fixed that by flipping that component upside down and using the good cylinder and swapping plungers, I want to make sure that this issue doesn't happen again before wiring it all back up with the AD110.

Thanks in advance!

[Revo2Maxx]

Hello and Welcome to the Forum

My first guess is that the Wire going to your Doorbell switch before you installed your Camera at the location is to small??? While I can't say this is for sure because I am not there and can't see it but that is my guess out of the gate...

Next issue and this might be where the issue really is and that might be because your Doorbell is only a 10vac Doorbell and putting 16vac is to much and can have same effect or one similar...

Most doorbells today are built with 16vac in mind however older homes may have had 10vac doorbells installed..

[testuser]

Hello and Welcome to the Forum

My first guess is that the Wire going to your Doorbell switch before you installed your Camera at the location is to small??? While I can't say this is for sure because I am not there and can't see it but that is my guess out of the gate...

Next issue and this might be where the issue really is and that might be because your Doorbell is only a 10vac Doorbell and putting 16vac is to much and can have same effect or one similar...

Most doorbells today are built with 16vac in mind however older homes may have had 10vac doorbells installed..

Thanks for the reply. Sorry, what did you mean by the wire to the doorbell switch (outside button?) being too small? The wires are rather thick in gauge, but I'm not sure what you mean otherwise.

I replaced the transformer with a 16V 30VA, not with a 16V 16VA. The doorbell functioned fine the first time I pushed it after upgrading the transformer, which is why I figured it wasn't an issue. Wouldn't it only pull whatever power it needed?

And you're right, the doorbell does indicate that it uses 16V 10VA, but it appeared to function fine before installing the chime kit on the two terminals.

Given the above, is it possible that it is still the fault of the larger transformer? Is there any possibility that polarity mattered with the chime kit, or that there's something wrong with the chime kit itself? And do you happen to know what the chime kit is doing? Is it just a ground loop isolator to reduce humming?

Thanks for your thoughts so far!

[Revo2Maxx]

Ok so I can't see so I can only guess... About the doorbell wires being to small if they are Large Copper wire then it wouldn't be the issue.. I have helped a good few of my friends hook up their Doorbell cameras and some of them had very bad wiring.. So that is my First Suspect...

To answer about the Chime Box, I don't know what it is really. I know there is a Electronic Relay AKA an Opto Isolator. So far I know 2 things about it. One if someone using 24vac transformer it will Fry the chime box and the unit will not work with a 16vac transformer and doorbell again as it will make the doorbell just constantly ring.. So With it dead and connected to a doorbell the doorbell just keeps going off. So while it is in good working order the doorbell only works when someone presses the Doorbell camera button and my guess is the box is letting the power flow to the Doorbell Chime without Suppressing the Voltage.. Button pressed it is open to allow current to flow when in stand by the Chime box is taking the little spikes of voltage that is bleeding by and voiding it..

About your Doorbell and pulling power that it needs in Normal Circuit electronics this is the case.. Most times they are built with loads of diodes and caps and resistors and such.. Most times they are made with IC chips that limit the current and voltage a like...

However in a Doorbell In this design, the solenoid piston consists of an iron core mounted to a non-magnetic metal bar. When there is no power to the electromagnet, a spring pushes the piston, and the iron core extends outside of the wire coil. By pressing the doorbell button you turn the electromagnet on, the iron core is drawn to the magnetic field, so it slides into the coiled wire.

As the iron core slides to the on state, the end of the piston strikes the right-hand tone bar. The tone bar vibrates, producing a particular note. This is the "ding" sound.

As long as you hold the doorbell button, current will flow through the electromagnet and the piston will remain in this position. But when you release the button, the current will stop flowing through the electromagnet and the magnetic field will collapse. The spring snaps the piston back to off position, where it hits the tone bar on the other side. The second tone bar produces the "dong" sound.

So then if you have a Low current demand doorbell it might be that the Chime box if you were using it when this happen isn't able to take out all the low Current that it is sending by powering up the Doorbell camera As I said above that it helps trap aka Shunt the power so the doorbell don't ring.. It might be that the 10va doorbell has very little power needs to move the plungers.. A way to fix this is to use 10 Ohm 1watt resistor and put that on the 2 doorbell wire legs.. Same place you put the wire for the doorbell and chime box..

In this case of you burnt up Front and are using the Back, You can put Chime Kit on T and B the Resistor on T and B and your doorbell button wires on T and B (Transformer = T and Back = B) now a 1/2watt might be enough but just remember that a resistor is going to take that voltage suppress it and it will be removed by Heat that is why I said a 1Watt should be used as it should be able to have no issue with suppression on 1watt resistor.. Without doing a bunch of testing and wiring that you may not fill comfortable with maybe just buying a new Doorbell would be better option... Also it isn't every day that other have 1 watt Resistors laying around in Trays or bins without being in Electronics and can't go to Radio Shack anymore to pick up parts when needed in this case..

[testuser]

Ok so I can't see so I can only guess... About the doorbell wires being to small if they are Large Copper wire then it wouldn't be the issue.. I have helped a good few of my friends hook up their Doorbell cameras and some of them had very bad wiring.. So that is my First Suspect...

To answer about the Chime Box, I don't know what it is really. I know there is a Electronic Relay AKA an Opto Isolator. So far I know 2 things about it. One if someone using 24vac transformer it will Fry the chime box and the unit will not work with a 16vac transformer and doorbell again as it will make the doorbell just constantly ring.. So With it dead and connected to a doorbell the doorbell just keeps going off. So while it is in good working order the doorbell only works when someone presses the Doorbell camera button and my guess is the box is letting the power flow to the Doorbell Chime without Suppressing the Voltage.. Button pressed it is open to allow current to flow when in stand by the Chime box is taking the little spikes of voltage that is bleeding by and voiding it..

About your Doorbell and pulling power that it needs in Normal Circuit electronics this is the case.. Most times they are built with loads of diodes and caps and resistors and such.. Most times they are made with IC chips that limit the current and voltage a like...

However in a Doorbell In this design, the solenoid piston consists of an iron core mounted to a non-magnetic metal bar. When there is no power to the electromagnet, a spring pushes the piston, and the iron core extends outside of the wire coil. By pressing the doorbell button you turn the electromagnet on, the iron core is drawn to the magnetic field, so it slides into the coiled wire.

As the iron core slides to the on state, the end of the piston strikes the right-hand tone bar. The tone bar vibrates, producing a particular note. This is the "ding" sound.

As long as you hold the doorbell button, current will flow through the electromagnet and the piston will remain in this position. But when you release the button, the current will stop flowing through the electromagnet and the magnetic field will collapse. The spring snaps the piston back to off position, where it hits the tone bar on the other side. The second tone bar produces the "dong" sound.

So then if you have a Low current demand doorbell it might be that the Chime box if you were using it when this happen isn't able to take out all the low Current that it is sending by powering up the Doorbell camera As I said above that it helps trap aka Shunt the power so the doorbell don't ring.. It might be that the 10va doorbell has very little power needs to move the plungers.. A way to fix this is to use 10 Ohm 1watt resistor and put that on the 2 doorbell wire legs.. Same place you put the wire for the doorbell and chime box..

In this case of you burnt up Front and are using the Back, You can put Chime Kit on T and B the Resistor on T and B and your doorbell button wires on T and B (Transformer = T and Back = B) now a 1/2watt might be enough but just remember that a resistor is going to take that voltage suppress it and it will be removed by Heat that is why I said a 1Watt should be used as it should be able to have no issue with suppression on 1watt resistor.. Without doing a bunch of testing and wiring that you may not fill comfortable with maybe just buying a new Doorbell would be better option... Also it isn't every day that other have 1 watt Resistors laying around in Trays or bins without being in Electronics and can't go to Radio Shack anymore to pick up parts when needed in this case..

Appreciate the thorough reply and explanation. Yeah, I can definitely see that happening where the low enough voltage passing through is still powering the plunger indefinitely, similar to that of me holding the doorbell button outside constantly.

I already managed to fix the doorbell by the way by flipping the inner component housing the two plungers, flipping it upside down, and using the first plunger. So now I get one last chance at fixing this.

I'll go ahead and quick order some 10ohm 1w resistors and see if that does the trick. So in this case, I would still bridge the connections between front (now rear) and trans with both the "chime kit" as well as the 10ohm 1w resistor, correct?

Thanks!

[testuser]

By the way, specifically, I was just gonna grab this since it can be here by tomorrow. Should work, right? https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07WFNM1FM/re ... UTF8&psc=1

[Revo2Maxx]

Yes that should work.. Kind of a lot of money needing only 1...

So yes you would take the 1 side of the Resistor and put on T and the other end on B, Also Chime Box would go to T and B and the 2 wires that would normally go to the Doorbell Button that is now going to the Camera also goes to the T and B When the doorbell camera is on the system with Chime box your plunger I am going to guess that is in constant movement maybe not enough to power the Ding but it is going very slightly up and up and up once that Resister is in place the plunger movement should stop until the doorbell button is pushed..

After an hour of this being installed I would for the sake of testing, I would double check that your Resistor isn't get to hot..

[Revo2Maxx]

So I just looked on youtube and found there was someone with the same type of issue.. I am not sure what type of Doorbell camera he is using but I am going to guess that it was same issue as you had.. Give you better Idea what I am talking about as I know how to do something not always easy to have others know what I am talking about...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iybnWDxjlZ0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsxyFdwF00g Added this second one as they have one showing it with a Chime Box.. The first one don't show a Chime box so I thought I would post this one as well...
Hope this helps

[testuser]

Yes that should work.. Kind of a lot of money needing only 1...

So yes you would take the 1 side of the Resistor and put on T and the other end on B, Also Chime Box would go to T and B and the 2 wires that would normally go to the Doorbell Button that is now going to the Camera also goes to the T and B When the doorbell camera is on the system with Chime box your plunger I am going to guess that is in constant movement maybe not enough to power the Ding but it is going very slightly up and up and up once that Resister is in place the plunger movement should stop until the doorbell button is pushed..

After an hour of this being installed I would for the sake of testing, I would double check that your Resistor isn't get to hot..

Perfect, thanks so much for the response! And yeah, I agree that it's a decent chunk of change for just one resistor, but hey, quarantining makes it difficult, and maybe I can use this later in one of my projects. I checked through a couple of packs of resistors I had, it was a long shot, but nothing of the same ohms here unfortunately.

And to describe my earlier problem better, the plunger actually took a nose dive when the power was flipped back on and seized completely in the down state, with the black plastic melting -- far more extreme than a slight vibration of the plunger. Hopefully the 10 ohm 1w resistor would be enough then, given the extreme response it received?

And I saw that video before and thought maybe that would help, glad you agree that it would. The guy in the video said that the resistor would ultimately wear down the transformer, do you think that would be the case here? If so, are we talking several years down the road?

[Revo2Maxx]

I don't think there is going to be any type of Wear over the Transformer..

Problem I want to double check with you that your Wire isn't 20awg.. Problem is that 20awg Bell wire can and does look like a good sized wire sadly while it will work for a Doorbell that is only 10va and sorry I have to use 10va as when working with the Transformer and Doorbell that is what they talk about.. However to be fair 20awg can also work with 16vac 30va if (no more then 30 total path is used) Here is the issue.. Transformer is 100% raw power there is no protection outside what the Transformer can do. So with that said if your Transformer is a 16vac 30va that means that transformer was wound to be able to produce 1.875amps at 16vac..

However what isn't understood is that sadly it can have an under voltage moment and cause a 2vac with 15amps of current and that can melt down loads of things.. (Going off the Formula Watts = Amps X Volts)

So to have better understand of things

16vac 10va is only .625amps aka 625 milliamps
16vac 30va is 1.875amps aka 1875 milliamps

30ft' of 20awg of non damaged wire will be fine however say 60 ft of 20awg would be over 10% voltage drop and that isn't good...