Very noisy camera sensors even in broad daylight

Have some questions or having issues with your IP Camera(s), Post them here for the mods and other users to assist you with.
ColColonCleaner
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2023 5:23 pm

Very noisy camera sensors even in broad daylight

Post by ColColonCleaner »

Have 3 IP8M-T2599EW 4k cameras and all of them have very noisy sensors, but if I turn on noise reduction then at night any motion results in ghost trails around the moving object and any moving text is illegible. This problem is visible in the browser and when using the rtsp stream over VLC or through go2rtc, all the feeds are terrible. And I shouldn’t need massive amounts of noise reduction during the day, right?

Even during the day when there is ample lighting if I turn the noise reduction off (or even reduce it below 50%) the sensors are just filled with noise. I've been dealing with this for a long time now and have gone through many forum posts about setting changes, messing with exposure, keyframe times, switching codecs, changing bitrates, and nothing seems to help. The sensors are so noisy that there is a very noticeable 'pulse' with every keyframe. It fills the feed with noise before cleaning up over the next couple frames.

Also, these are normally 4k cameras and I have them running in that resolution. As a test I tried reducing them to 1080p and that made the noise much worse, not better. And they look like they are sending 480p video even though the metadata on the feed confirms its 1080p. I was expecting the camera to take the 4k sensor and do some pixel binning on it to reduce noise before sending the 1080p feed, but it's so much worse this way.

And sometimes the 'live' feed view in the browser automatically switches to the sub stream to "improve the viewing experience" and that shouldn't be happening either. I'm not sure why that occurs but it's definitely not an issue with bandwidth on my network. I have a Unifi network here with mostly 10g fiber between the machines and these cameras only use 8mbps max, and only 3-4 watts each from my PoE hub during the day. They are on 24 awg bare copper cat6 riser cables, all very neatly cable managed with the shorts runs possible, and all under 100ft. And the machine i’m running it on is a 9900k at 5.0ghz with a 3090, so it’s not an issue with rendering on the computer either.

And switching from h264 to h265 makes the problem worse, not better. I can't fathom why the feeds are so noisy other than they are just bad sensors in these cameras, but I'm hoping that's not the case.

Here's a video of the feeds: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nd9IoVdW8c4

Any help figuring this out would be appreciated. I've tried so much already to no avail.
User avatar
Revo2Maxx
Site Admin
Posts: 5820
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2019 3:05 pm

Re: Very noisy camera sensors even in broad daylight

Post by Revo2Maxx »

Hello and Welcome to the Forum

So hate to say it but there are a few things going on.

First question, Why did you choose the settings you have your camera setup on? While I don't own that camera I am going to guess this isn't' the way that camera was setup out of the box..

Second, To be honest I am not sure what my settings were for my 4k camera. What i can say is VBR is never a stable option and will never look good in any format..

Third, I would look to see if that camera has an option for h.264h if it does I would change that camera to that format and CBR. Keeping it at 4096 is best.

Now I have some other cameras that won't work well in h.265 and don't offer the H.264h so I have them setup on just the none H and that works well. if yours don't have the H.264H then I would try the normal.

Worst case, I would take one and Reset back to Factory setup and see what it comes in setup as. If it is VBR really change it to CBR.. Again if it comes setup H.265 then if changing it to CVR didn't help much change it to H.264 at a min. It will take more space on your Micro SD but a good picture is what you want worry about space later..
Screenshot (4491).png
Screenshot (4491).png (88.71 KiB) Viewed 1471 times
Here to help the best I can.
Be Safe
User avatar
Revo2Maxx
Site Admin
Posts: 5820
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2019 3:05 pm

Re: Very noisy camera sensors even in broad daylight

Post by Revo2Maxx »

Also please keep in mind that using Chrome or Edge normal isn't going to play well either. h.265 has issues on them formats and is one reason that you notice your stream keeps changing over to the Sub Channel. If you use Edge in IE tab mode that is best as long as your camera still supports IE that is. Not all cameras I own from Amcrest work in IE after the move to JS firmware in 2019. That means it would be limited to the Chrome or Edge normal and this you will notice some issues in playback..
Here to help the best I can.
Be Safe
User avatar
Revo2Maxx
Site Admin
Posts: 5820
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2019 3:05 pm

Re: Very noisy camera sensors even in broad daylight

Post by Revo2Maxx »

So I just reset my 8mp camera back to factory to see how mine was setup. Now my camera is older so it isn't as good as the Amcrest one you have. However in factory settings it came in at h.264 format ( I did change to H.265 for lower frame rate. However it came setup for CBR, and i frames were 2x as all my other IP cameras were.

I did some testing and sure enough if I setup my camera to VBS and change the 2x to 1x aka changing the i frame to match your FPS it will act just like yours..

So what is happening? If I had to guess if you were to count out the time it takes for that screen to refresh it would be the same number as your FPS. So in my case my camera was only 4k at 15fPS and when I count between each refresh of the screen it was 15. Another thing the camera had a person walk though the frame at the time it was setup in VBR and there was so much ghosting you couldn't even see the persons head. It don't do that in CBR..

I did the Factory reset in a video if you want I can show all that I did and what the camera comes back online after the reset. I can post it to my Youtube channel, I have not yet. But could if you wanted to see the testing that I did. I will admit that I used IE for the Browser so that will clean up my footage if I would have used Chrome or Edge normal it wouldn't have been as stable as it was in IE.. Only thing I will edit in video is the P2P and the 2mp camera that comes into frame when I zoom the camera out because my 8mp camera I used is a Zoom bullet camera.

In the end. Changing the settings to CBR, 2x on the I frame will make your Video not only cleaner it will make the refreshing go away.. Picture will look better all around.
Here to help the best I can.
Be Safe
ColColonCleaner
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2023 5:23 pm

Re: Very noisy camera sensors even in broad daylight

Post by ColColonCleaner »

Thanks for the tips! And almost immediately too!

The settings on the camera in my video just happened to be what they were last on during testing. I've tried CBR and VBR at all the different bitrates and regardless of the settings it either looks the same or worse, always a grainy noisy mess.

With regard to the browsers that's not how I normally view the video, it's normally over an rtsp stream into go2rtc or into frigate. In the new video I also show it going into VLC with all the different codecs.

I made the changes you suggested, switching to CBR and increasing the keyframe interval to 2 seconds, and on H265 it's basically the same. On H264 it shows some improvement but it's still unacceptable. And the refreshing is still very visible at 2 seconds on the keyframes regardless of codec or bitrate. Whenever the keyframe happens there is a flash of noise and then it clears up a little over the next few frames.

I tried reducing the bitrate to 4096 as well like you mentioned and all that does is send less information through, so the graininess is reduced but also picture quality.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLmCuEiaYYc

What are the next steps now that I've tried these changes?
ColColonCleaner
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2023 5:23 pm

Re: Very noisy camera sensors even in broad daylight

Post by ColColonCleaner »

Resetting the camera completely to factory defaults makes STILL images crisp, but that crispness is completely fake. It uses the '3D noise reduction' to hide the immense amount of noise from the sensor. It uses 50% as the default setting for it. This means any motion is full of ghosting. The stationary image of the camera looks fine but any moving object is ghosting around as the noise reduction has to try picking a clear image out of the sea of noise on the person walking by.
It's unacceptable because that's what we're trying to do with security cameras, see things that are moving. It doesn't matter if the still image is crisp if anything moving on it is like a ghost as the noise reduction averages all the sensor values over a couple seconds. The noise is so bad that with noise reduction enabled people leave long trails in their wake and look translucent as they are walking, blending into their background.

Here's a screenshot of me opening the door to that deck. You can see the deck railing and the chairs right through me the noise is so bad.
ghost.png
ghost.png (297.89 KiB) Viewed 1460 times
This kind of issue seems to be inside the camera, before it even reaches the encoder to be sent over the wire.
User avatar
Revo2Maxx
Site Admin
Posts: 5820
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2019 3:05 pm

Re: Very noisy camera sensors even in broad daylight

Post by Revo2Maxx »

So looking at your last video that is kind of crazy how much noise you have. Again I would reset one of your cameras back to Default Factory settings. However before you do this. I would double check your cables. If they are CCA or overly long that can cause this issue as well. However if they are Real Copper Cat5e or Cat6a or better then there should be no issue there and the next step would be to reset the camera back to factory.. I say this because even though you made changes in the cameras settings for the Encoding info. There might have been some other settings that was made that has caused your camera to be very unhappy and a Reset to factory can cure that.. I am uploading my video, I want to fuzz out a couple of things and because of that I can't make any changes until the HD format is done. Then kind of bites anyway because once I do the edit of the P2P and the other camera brand name that I don't want to get free advertising I will have to wait little longer after for it to update the darn thing. But it has been added just waiting to make update to it before I can post a link.
Here to help the best I can.
Be Safe
User avatar
Revo2Maxx
Site Admin
Posts: 5820
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2019 3:05 pm

Re: Very noisy camera sensors even in broad daylight

Post by Revo2Maxx »

So here is a Video again as I said before only changed it so my P2P don't show and the name of the camera other then that all this is 100% as I made it.. I just got done with the edit so maybe won't show until it is ready or maybe only show in SD. However here is the link and who knows maybe it will just show it without the Blur added as I don't know how long it takes once I add that for it to be fully working with blur added.. P2P don't really matter because the camera is hidden behind my NVR now anyway.
https://youtu.be/RFD-RbqAhq0
Here to help the best I can.
Be Safe
ColColonCleaner
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2023 5:23 pm

Re: Very noisy camera sensors even in broad daylight

Post by ColColonCleaner »

All the cameras are connected with the following cable: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01JAVLBA2
The runs are all less than 70 ft. At 48v there's going to be basically no voltage loss across that short distance.

I did a full factory reset and also updated the firmware to the latest version and there's no improvement on any of the cameras unfortunately.

Here's the latest video after doing that. Sensor noise still terrible and the pulsing is still very visible, especially when running over H265 but it's there regardless of codec. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpSTfi66Utk

Question for you. I noticed in your video that the car tail lights that go past your camera leave trails behind them, which implies noise reduction is being used to smooth out that video. Can you show what your camera feed looks like without the default noise reduction turned on?

At this point I'm pretty sure these cameras are bad apples and not fit for purpose, which really sucks. I sent an email to amcrest. Hopefully can get them replaced.
User avatar
Pogo
Posts: 291
Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2023 9:10 am

Re: Very noisy camera sensors even in broad daylight

Post by Pogo »

Attach a single camera into a plain jane PoE switch with nothing else plugged in and then straight into a laptop or pc on the same subnet. That will tell you if you have three new cameras all bad out of the box. Everything else is just pissin' up a rope.
Post Reply