4-in-1 Analog Camera Joystick Bypass

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Pogo
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4-in-1 Analog Camera Joystick Bypass

Post by Pogo »

Is this possible with these cameras or do they rely on a small circuit in their inline joystick to display a menu on a quadbird DVR?

I think I messed one up on a cheapie ZOSI camera that otherwise would display its menu through my DVR without touching the joystick. Would be easy enough to just snip it out and put new connectors on the cable if that would still provide the menu on the DVR monitor.
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Revo2Maxx
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Re: 4-in-1 Analog Camera Joystick Bypass

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Using your dvr click on ptz on the ch your wanting to work with. Then expand the control like your going to set a preset then at top right should be menu button. Click that should bring up menu for camera. If that didn't work press the iris open if not try iris close. Not all cameras have osd but if none of them worked try preset 95. Some cameras if you press goto and it don't work also try setting 95. Not all of my OSD cameras will work that way have one or 2 that require on board/wire joystick to open menu.

Also if using in CVI format might limit some cameras options so I set most all of mine to TVI.
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Pogo
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Re: 4-in-1 Analog Camera Joystick Bypass

Post by Pogo »

Thanks, but I understand all that and can access the menus of all my 4-in-1 cameras from my AMDV8M8-H5, no problem -- and much to my surprise when I first discovered I could!

My question is whether I can eliminate the joystick from the cable itself and still have the OSD functionality from the camera available on the DVR.
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Re: 4-in-1 Analog Camera Joystick Bypass

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That joystick aka 5 position button is just that a button that is connected to a couple of wires could be as many as 6 however I am going to guess it is just a few wires or even just 2, that is going though the wires to the cameras PCB. That button has no logic it is just a small button that goes to the end of some wires to the PCB where it then goes to some logic controller.

Should you cut them off!? NO! however it is your camera and your button on the wire and I can't stop your cutters from doing so. What I can say is that there is no real reason outside of setting up the camera where the button is needed. I mean a ladder up 40 feet and trying to setup a camera that you have to try and mess around with phone and presets or menu clicks to make the menu come up. It is easier and faster to use the button right there on the camera. I mean one of my cameras the button is in side the dome. In fact a good many of them are and I want to add a Reset button to the outside of all my cameras because having to take domes off or backs off my PTZ cameras to reset them is a PITA.

I seen someone if this is you. Sorry now you know how I feel about it, However I seen someone that was gifted a 200+ AI camera and they cut off all the wires that led into the camera besides the Ethernet port. 12v, Audio in and out, Alarm in and out. Now the camera is worthless to any new owner or no ability to test over 12v power if the POE portion goes out. That irked me so bad. But oh well as I said it was theirs to do as they see fit. Even if I feel it isn't smart idea.

So Personally think it is a bad idea. However to be safe I would personally take the camera apart, I would use a pin puller to remove the pin to the connector and test the camera without it being connected. Worse case you have to put the pins back into the connector if it no longer works over coax. However my guess is that it is as I said before a No Logic button and just sends signals of 1 type or another to know if your pressing up, down, right left and or straight in and the camera can live without it. Then after being removed and cut off once found to still function without it. I would also remove the wires from the inside so they don't ever short out on something at another time in history. No need for them to be on the PCB if the button isn't there.
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Re: 4-in-1 Analog Camera Joystick Bypass

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I respect and appreciate your answer and would generally agree, but in this case it's a cheaper ZOSI camera that appeared to have a major OSD problem after the joystick was pulled through a knockout on an enclosure I was using as an experimental outdoor mounting solution. That part turned out great! It just had a horrible jumping and distorted image that kept returning to the same menu option again and again. I'm thinking a stuck button or I cracked the board. The joystick itself was non-functional.

With little to lose, and indeed after taking the camera apart to trace out the wiring just to be sure..., One connector. One control wire. SNIP, SNIP, SNIP. No more joystick and a nice short pigtail that will now make for a much cleaner package overall using a UTP cable run to a balun inside the enclosure. It can now be sealed much better without needing an entry opening any larger than the diameter of UTP. For my particular purposes, a great solution.

OSD works perfectly and the image is also noticably cleaner. And I would personally rather fine tune a camera using my DVR while sitting on a couch instead of up a ladder with a phone or laptop any day, unless of course manual adjustments are necessary, but that's just me. It's one of the features of the new XVRs that make them so attractive as great solutions for prolonging the life of an older coax system while also migrating to IP all at the same time with the same box..., very economically, too.

All that said, the camera was still acting crazy even after removing the joystick. It turned out to be stuck in an endless loading loop of some kind that I was actually able to overcome by toggling the format back and forth from auto to TVI (which it was set for) several times on the DVR. So the joystick may not have been the problem in the first place unless it was the initial cause and the problem remained even after I removed it. Whatever. Fixed now and I'm all for eliminating joysticks on the rest of my economy 4-in-1s. I see no need for them in a modern XVR system where the DVR can manage all the same settings anyway. I'm just happy that it's possible and simple to do!

As usual, thanks for your input.
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Re: 4-in-1 Analog Camera Joystick Bypass

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Ok Well with that info that leads to one more issue. In some of the systems and I don't know that camera so I can't say. However in some of the cameras when you Press and hold a button in up it turns on 1 type lets say for ease of mind in this case up is for CVBS/960h, right for TVI down for CVI and left for AHD. Sorry don't know what options yours have. However this brings back 1 other issue. What type of button toggle does your camera have??

I mean if it is a Cable Center button that is out facing the camera it might have a center ground and that might be why your system is having an issue if you removed that type of toggle..

Lets say that the Controller in the camera is looking for a potential to ground. So at the toggles center most part the camera is at ground on the wires that lead to the PCB. Then when that button moves the controller is alerted to look for a referenced to ground. This could be within the switch. So with that type of button it could be an issue of a controller loop where it is looking for something close to the reference for the set in this case TVI. Then it is setup in the controller to phase out for a set time unless that ground reference is back in stand by (Toggle Center)

I keep forgetting about these toggles as most of the ones I have are OSD set or under the dome over a toggle board that sits just above the main board that is under the camera board.

I would if you have a camera that is or was working and complete, I would take a scope if you have one and test the wires for the data that it has when the switch is at center. If it is a ground 0v then on the camera you removed and are using different wiring for could have a wire added to the area to pull that to ground. It might be a different value then 0 and in that case over the wires for the toggle a resistor of the right value could be used to make the camera think the toggle is at center.
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Re: 4-in-1 Analog Camera Joystick Bypass

Post by Pogo »

Curiosity got the best of me, so here is the basic anatomy of a common inline 4-in-1 OSD controller. The ones currently being used are all basically the same with the exception of the actual menu items available within different camera firmware. The menu features are still accessed and navigated the same way with any of the common joystick style controllers. White is the single control wire to the camera.

Joy-1.jpg
Joy-1.jpg (263.71 KiB) Viewed 277 times
Joy-2.jpg
Joy-2.jpg (213.97 KiB) Viewed 277 times
Joy-3.jpg
Joy-3.jpg (229.96 KiB) Viewed 277 times

Basically one control wire to ground. But it wasn't always this simple! I ran accross this thread from an astronomy camera site that shed some fundamental light on the basic operation of these devices whether they're old-school multi-wire boxes or modern single wire inline toggles. I personally like the data over coax approach that just works with a mouse via the PTZ controller features on a modern DVR!

https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/4997 ... e-control/
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Re: 4-in-1 Analog Camera Joystick Bypass

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That is all great with the cloudynights site but to be honest that isn't going to help much when it comes to the format of the camera it self.

However as I was saying about how it would work with 1 format over another is same idea of multi wire to just a pair and looking for a value of xyz and so on. The main issue with these cameras over some other format is they run on UTC of a type of controller for a set protocol. UTC isn't really new the problem is that not many people owned it when it first was released as it was owned by Pelco and was called UTC C. (Pelco C Coaxitron) For a long time most systems were stuck to use RS-485 and some still using the older 232 format. That was because while some agreed to use Pelco C no one ever paid for the license to use the format.

So now today the format is like Dahua CVI, Hickvision TVI and really there are some other formats that while it might work like HDCVI3.0 and 2.0 and the issue is while some of my TVI cameras will work on both formats only 1 offers the full 300 preset where the other one is only good for 80 presets.

My guess on a Multi wire system there isn't going to be anything besides what path the ground goes down. Then up that cable to the controller in the camera will tell the Micro Chip what the users is doing Where with the 2 wires it will work off as I was saying before a Potential to ground or even maybe some voltage that is offset by resistive value.

Don't know never took one apart and or looked into the joy stick as I have not had the need to. However for me as I was saying I would rather keep them in tact if all able because when setting up the cameras normally they are hard to get setup without looking over video feed, Then it could be hard to work out the menu over small screen in the sun. With the Joystick in place and monitor in view it is in my mind anyway much safer to setup and get the camera pointed in the right direction. Then with all other settings being able to work over Coax is a Bonus. Just remember I also come from long line of RS-485 hardware with 360 so yeah for me I would pull RG-59 Siamese cable with 18awg power and a cat cable for alarms RS-485 at a min. So today it is great that I can get UTC, Video, Audio, and with some Tech out there (I don't use yet) Even power over 1 cable for HD Analog. Right now, I have cameras with Audio, Video and UTC on 1 cable and has been a blessing with the Amcrest 7108-AI DVR and my 8m16-H5 DVR as both work with the tech in the cameras.
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Pogo
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Re: 4-in-1 Analog Camera Joystick Bypass

Post by Pogo »

I found the cloudynights postings interesting as a different perspective and also educational for my understatnding on a historical level. Your response above certainly elborates on the latter!

Great info as usual. Thanks for taking the time.
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