AD410 Input Voltage Orange Sticker

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WildWilly
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AD410 Input Voltage Orange Sticker

Post by WildWilly »

New AD410 has an orange sticker over the input terminals that says to only use 16-24 VAC. The product technical spec from the Amcrest website (attached) and plenty of forum discussion says 12-24 VDC will work fine and that polarity does not matter.

My doorbell (M&S intercom system that plays the doorbell chime over intercom speakers when the doorbell is pressed) has 24 VDC across the switch. Will this AD410 device work in place of the pushbutton switch?

If DC input voltage is OK, why does Amcrest put the orange sticker on the device?

Thanks in advance for the help.
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Revo2Maxx
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Re: AD410 Input Voltage Orange Sticker

Post by Revo2Maxx »

Hello and Welcome to the Forum

So that is a Question asked some time ago and never got an answer. However I am wondering if that is what they want people to use under normal use (Meaning with the Traditional Doorbell Chime and Chime Kit) Most others that would use with a 12v DC power supply like myself is doing so on a Stand alone setup.

What I can tell you is that a DC Power supply will not last long if someone uses the doorbell camera like they would using AC power supply.

Not easy to explain right now. However to try and explain how it works. Normally when you connect a AC Power supply it is connected with a Chime Kit, When the doorbell camera button is pressed it in a since causes a Short Circuit. So if you had a 12 or 24dc power supply connected to the doorbell and had it setup for button press like normal going to a Chime it will short out the DC Power Supply.

I don't know your System, However in general a Intercom would have a button that wouldn't be powered, Once pressed that triggers a inside system that has power, When someone answers that system it then sends power to a Power Circuit for Mic and Speaker. So in a Since there would be no power to make the Doorbell camera work in that type of system. If there was power full time that could power the camera then it would/could short out the intercom power supply...
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WildWilly
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Re: AD410 Input Voltage Orange Sticker

Post by WildWilly »

Thanks for responding. The spec sheet says the AD410 consumes 3 W. That corresponds to 125 mA from 24 VDC if it's just that straightforward. Not knowing the circuit inside the AD410, that may not be correct. But the spec sheet also says it consumes 0.2 A. For 3 W, one would deduce that the supply voltage is 15 V (AC volts rms presumably). The AD410 probably does not behave exactly like the physical switch in that its button is on a downstream circuit. I would think that it has enough internal capacitance to keep the unit running, but puts a momentary pulse (short circuit) onto the power line. Do you know what it does to DC power on the input lines?

I have not traced the wires that connect to the doorbell pushbutton switch to see where they go, but they probably are sourced at the intercom system after a trip to the attic and back downstairs to the main intercom panel. I guess a trip into the attic is in my near future. The wires look to be about 26 AWG single strand copper, plenty adequate for the 125-200 mA needed. Once I find the source I can find out if that's likely able to source the required current.

Perhaps if someone else on the forum has experience interfacing with a M&S intercom system installation they can "chime in". I replaced the original (mid-90s) analog intercom system with a digital panel (see below) due to noisy volume controls, but it's been 15 years since I had that main panel off the wall.
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WildWilly
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Re: AD410 Input Voltage Orange Sticker

Post by WildWilly »

My "16 VAC" doorbell transformer actually provides 18.7 VAC. It also has a "24 VAC" tap that provides up to about 28.5 VAC. When operating with a standard doorbell with the chime kit, the AD410 voltage varies between 0.12 VAC (when its button is pressed) and 18.4 VAC (button not pressed). The AD410 data sheet says it works between 16 VAC and 24 VAC.

Do you know if the 24VAC is considered something like a maximum voltage, or do they mean that it can work with a 24 VAC doorbell transformer which has a 20% higher voltage? I'm asking because it's difficult to find 16 VAC relays but 24 VAC relays are plentiful.
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Revo2Maxx
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Re: AD410 Input Voltage Orange Sticker

Post by Revo2Maxx »

THe Doorbell works between 9 to 30v now that is AC voltage and so with DC as I am sure from your replies and knowledge of Electronics. So there is a Relay in the camera that switches from open circuit to closed when button is pressed. The Chime Kit is a multi purpose unit. One is to pass voltage for camera from doorbell chime and other is like a Voltage and current absorber however with any circuit there are only so much it can take before it fails. Well one of the issues with the AD410 from the 110 they made some very little changes in the Chime Kit and now with that change rather then killing the chime kit, it now seems to kill the power board in the AD410 if people connect it not as expected..

About the Relays. I would buy the 24 and they will work fine with the 16vac. Please note don't buy a AC Meaning for a Air Conditioner Relay they are different animal.
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WildWilly
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Re: AD410 Input Voltage Orange Sticker

Post by WildWilly »

Thanks for clarifying the voltage range.

The 24 VAC relay data sheets generally show pickup voltage at 80% of rated coil voltage and dropout voltage at 30% of rated coil voltage (on at/above 19.2 V, off at/below 7.2 V), depending on the particular relay. They also recommend coil operation within 10% of rated voltage (21.6 V to 26.4V) but allow room temperature operation up to 130%-140% of rated voltage (31.2 V - 33.6 V). Chart below is from a typical data sheet
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The 24 VAC relay operating at 28.5 V falls outside the recommended range but within the specified max range, especially for low current, even at higher operating temperature ranges. Long term reliability is probably better if operating within the recommended range (21.6 V to 26.4 V).

I've got an 24V DC supply as well as 24 VDC and 24 VAC relays on order and will try a DC setup, assuming that the actual voltage from the DC supply is 24 V. Do you know if the AD410 power board issues are better or worse with operation at 28.5 VAC vs 24 VDC operation?
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Revo2Maxx
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Re: AD410 Input Voltage Orange Sticker

Post by Revo2Maxx »

Personally I don't know. I do have many different power supplies and I have done some testing however I have not done any testing with my 24Vdc power supplies. Mainly because the issue that I and few of others back with the AD110 did when it came to the 24Vac and killing the chime kits. Then because of DC not being used for me anyway with a Chime I have not done many things with testing that way because in truth I don't want to kill my camera. I have enough things that I need to fix and working on these things without Schematics or parts with good markings on them make it hard to even get a base line of what is what outside of the easy to know areas..

So with DC power, I keep my doorbell camera setup as Stand Alone, No indoor chime and no Chime Kit needed...

So with all that said. Testing my 24Vdc with no load it is 24.3Vdc, I test it on a High Power Zoom camera with IR, and on load it is 23.98Vdc with IR on and 24Vdc with IR off.. The thing with AC and DC power setups. Is normally the AC has a wider swing. That is because most of the DC supplies have built in Regulation where the AC don't.

So why did the AD110 fail years ago. Well using 24vac, with Chime Kit, the voltage on the Transformer could/would drop to 2.4vac and doing so to much Vac under the normal voltage of the Transformers causes the Current to go High. So in my case, 24Vac 100va power supply is 41 amps of current at 2.4vac. So then there is parts within a Circuit that have max voltage and current ratings and as such damage will happen. Now I don't know when or where the damage happened, I just know when I was testing my 24vac power supply with my AD110 using a Voltage meter and amp clamp meter I pulled the plug when I seen the amps get to 10amps however after that I did test again using a different AC power supply. 24vac 34va and again it went volts low current high and I don't remember the values but I know it was over 12amps. Results was I killed another Chime Kit. However with the issues and the Chime Kit returns it seems that the new AD410 chime kit is no longer the weak point it is the Doorbells Power Board if something happens with AD410 it kills the camera and only will work with USB power.. So this is easy to figure out that there is some type of damage to the cameras Power Board. I know it don't make since seeing the USB works however that is easy because the voltage from USB is camera board working range and isn't not part of the main Power board is my guess.. My guess is if there is something wrong with Camera only works on USB the repair would fall in the Power Board of the camera.

So yeah last part is why I don't want to do much testing on my AD410. Cost enough that I don't want to replace if something goes wrong in testing. For me my Ad410 after the testing I have done, I have working in a Stand Alone setup on a 1.25amp 12Vdc power supply. The wire is short between power supply and camera if wire was any longer I would opt for larger current power supply.
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WildWilly
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Re: AD410 Input Voltage Orange Sticker

Post by WildWilly »

I went with 16 VAC power (doorbell transformer mounted in the attic), Amcrest Chime Kit and 24 VAC relay both mounted indoors inside the intercom base station. All are connected as per your diagram earlier in this topic.

It's working great and is recording to Synology Surveillance Station for subscription-free storage. Also is connected to Amcrest Smart Home app.

Thanks for all the help.
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Revo2Maxx
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Re: AD410 Input Voltage Orange Sticker

Post by Revo2Maxx »

Thank you for the Update. Nice to hear you have things working.
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